Transcript of Season 4, Episode 4 - Transcript

Charlie:
Hello and welcome to the British English podcast. If this is your first time listening, then please feel free to head back to the first episode and work your way through the full catalogue of episodes and you'll see that this show is all about helping non-native adult learners of English to better understand British culture and British English. And in today's show, I am going to interview a British person to find out all about their career, the industry in which they are in, and the journey they have been on because, well, I find them interesting. But I also think these interviews tend to shed light on the cultural significance of that industry and how it is thought of in the country and thinking about it. That's actually one of the biggest culture shocks I get whenever I find out that a specific industry is regarded in one way in one country and then completely the opposite in another. I think teaching is respected in very different ways in America and England, and I find that fascinating. So today we are going to be interviewing a professional dancer from the UK who is called Daisy Hardy. Hello, Daisy, how are you doing today?

Daisy:
Hi, I'm good, thank you. How are.

Charlie:
You? Lovely to hear. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good. I've just come back from a dog walk because we've got two dachshunds or dachshunds now. How would you pronounce that word? That dog breed.

Daisy:
Mm. Good question. I have to say, I'm not an expert on my dog breeds. I would probably say dachshund.

Charlie:
Dachshund. Yeah, or we could say the nickname sausage dog.

Daisy:
Sausage Dog. A Dachshund and a sausage dog.

Charlie:
Yeah. Cheeky little sausage dogs. We're not going to talk about sausage dogs all day long, but one of them doesn't like walking with just me, so she only likes to walk if Stacey is with me. So I feel quite rejected a lot of the time. Yes. We went on a walk today and successfully completed it. What was your day like today so far?

Daisy:
It was good. Thank you. It's been a day of teaching so far, teaching all day, different students, English lessons.

Charlie:
Okay, so that has already introduced us to your other side of the other industry that you're in, which is of course, teaching English. And that's how we know each other, isn't it?

Daisy:
Exactly, yes.

Charlie:
Let's see what came first, the teaching or the dancing for you?

Daisy:
I guess that depends on how you look at it in a sense of what was in my life first or what became my profession or my career first. [Yeah] I have danced from the age of two, so I guess in a lot of ways, dance came first.

Charlie:
In a professional capacity?

Daisy:
Not in a professional capacity. More in a putting your fairy wings on and running around the room kind of capacity at age two. [We've all been there], I would say. Then I kept dancing as I grew up. I did the traditional route that many girls in the UK take. I think a lot of us in the UK, we grow up doing ballet, modern dance, tap dance. That's quite a normal hobby for a girl to do after school in the UK.

Charlie:
Yeah, it was in my family. I have two older sisters and they both went. I was actually dragged along. I don't think I admitted that to my friends and I did a couple, maybe a term of dancing, but I hung up my ballet shoes pretty early in my career. Did you feel like you took to it like straight away? Did you think, Oh, I'd love a bit of tap?

Daisy:
Tap was always my thing, I have to say.

Charlie:
And what is tap?

Daisy:
Tap is not popular all around the world. I have to say, when I moved to Spain, I lived in quite a small town and I was looking for tap dance classes and I came across some very confused faces when I was asking about this. They they thought maybe I meant flamenco. So I tried to explain. It's not exactly flamenco. It's quite close, quite similar. Lots of similarities. Tap dance is where you have the metal taps on the bottom of your shoes, one on the toes and one on the heel. And you make the the rhythms, the beats, the music with your feet, basically.

Charlie:
Yeah. It's a good explanation. You literally tap to the music, don't you? And you make lots of different... The light taps and the dark, the heavier stomps. They kind of give the rhythm some depth. Yeah, tones. [Exactly]. Yeah.

Daisy:
A bit like drumming, I would say drumming with your feet.

Charlie:
Drumming with your feet, drumming with your heels and all different parts of your- your feet, really. Yeah. And so that was early on. What age do you reckon you went for your first tap class?

Daisy:
So I started with ballet aged two, then probably went to modern aged four. And let's say tap would have been around five, six years old that I started, I think.

Charlie:
Now ballet is probably a lot more recognised, I assume, especially in Europe, right?

Daisy:
Yeah, ballet is quite universal. The same, even the same terms. The French terms that are used within a ballet class will be universal no matter what country or language you're taking the class in. [Ah!] So that's, yeah, quite recognised in different places.

Charlie:
Okay. So did you find a ballet group in Spain?

Daisy:
I did. Yes.

Charlie:
Okay.

Daisy:
I was looking for tap and I found a lot of ballet, to the point where I have to put a disclaimer out there. I am not a ballerina. Ballet is, of course, a very technical dance. And if you become a professional ballerina, it's a very different specific world within the dance world. And all of us as dancers, we train in ballet and we take ballet classes as a form of fitness, as a form of keeping the body in shape and technically ready for everything. I'm definitely not a professional ballerina. And yet when I was in Spain, because the focus out there was on ballet, somehow I ended up in the Christmas show doing a solo on pointe, which I have to say was not the highlight of my career. It was very stressful, but a unique experience.

Charlie:
Wow. How many eyes would you say were on you then? Was it a huge audience?

Daisy:
A couple of hundred. Let's say.

Charlie:
Okay. Pairs of eyes or...?

Daisy:
Oh, yeah, pairs of eyes. A couple of hundred spectators.

Charlie:
Okay. And that was ballet. And you were doing a solo and you were on pointe, which I understand means you're on the top of your tiptoes.

Daisy:
Exactly. On pointe is where you you wear the specific pointe shoes that have blocks in the end of the ballet shoe that help you to- when you rise up, you rise through Demi Pointe, we say, which is where you just stand on your tiptoes. And then you keep going onto the very tips of your toes on top of those blocks in the shoe.

Charlie:
Yeah, a very painful process. Do you find it painful even to this day?

Daisy:
These days I would not be found dancing on pointe, but yes, probably I would still find it painful.

Charlie:
So you started when you were two. Did you go on to point when you were two?

Daisy:
No. You you are very much encouraged by all ballet teachers to wait for the feet to be fully developed, to be strong enough to be able to rise onto pointe. And that usually wouldn't happen before the age of 14. I want to say 12, 14.

Charlie:
12, 14. That's when a female's foot is fully developed, would you say?

Daisy:
Perhaps. It could be.

Charlie:
Or male? I don't know why. Well, I was talking to you, so I assumed female. I think I wanted my feet to grow beyond the age of 14, but I don't think they did. 12 - 14 is the safe point in which you can try to go on pointe. Go on pointe?

Daisy:
Yeah. To go on pointe. [Yeah.] Exactly.

Charlie:
The dancing started at a very early age. So I assume you weren't teaching English before the age of two?

Daisy:
No, that's correct. I was just dancing and the languages started during high school, I would say, and, well, started learning...

Charlie:
The language learning?

Daisy:
Language learning. Yeah. We started French lessons probably when I was in year three. And then we- in high school in year eight, I had a choice between German and Spanish and everybody was choosing Spanish. So I chose German just to be different. I didn't want to be rejected. I didn't want to choose Spanish and be told, no, you have to study German. So I thought, I'll just choose German straight away and know that I'll get my first choice.

Charlie:
Oh, is this showing us a peek under the hood of the psyche of Daisy?

Daisy:
Quite possibly, yes. Although the German teachers at my school were also particularly nice, friendly teachers, so that probably also played a role.

Charlie:
Right. I see that you went for the German for those reasons. And when did you think about teaching?

Daisy:
Honestly, for a long time I said the one career I definitely think I won't go for is teaching.

Charlie:
I think that's what a lot of us do as we're going through school.

Daisy:
I knew I liked languages and it was quite clear early on that that was what I was best at at school and what I would probably go on to study at university, although I also knew the whole time that I wanted really to be a dancer. And every time we would have career days or careers talks or anything of the sort, I would say, Yes, I know what I want to do. I know what I want to be. I'm going to be a dancer. And the response- I was at quite an academic school with quite a lot of pressure. And so the response every time was, That's great, that's fantastic. At the weekends as a hobby, that's lovely. And I would say no, but surely you can be a dancer as a career. And I was convinced by everyone around me that, no, that wasn't a career and I should choose something else.

Charlie:
That's interesting. Okay, so in the UK, well, in your experience, we're refrained from pursuing a career in dance, generally-.

Daisy:
In all things artistic, I would say.

Charlie:
In all things artistic?

Daisy:
I think it is changing. And [yeah] I know that I at the point where I left school, there was no one to support me in saying that that was possible. But then a few years later, some girls I know who would have started high school as I was leaving, and by the time they were leaving, which was a couple of years ago, dance was a GCSE, dance was an A-level, and they actually went straight to dance school from my school. [Right]. So it's changed a lot in the past ten years.

Charlie:
And after university, after going to dance school, is there more available for like jobs out there now, do you think, for dancers?

Daisy:
Do you mean more in comparison...

Charlie:
More opportunity compared to when you graduated? Because you said that there's more opportunity to learn the arts and they're encouraging us to to learn it all the way up till university level, right? But is there I'm wondering, do you think there's more opportunity to be a professional dancer than there was before?

Daisy:
No, I wouldn't say so particularly. It seems a bit back to front, I guess. Definitely since COVID. Covid had a big effect on the industry. And it's only now, I would say this year that it's really starting to bounce back. And so that plays a part in how much is available.

Charlie:
Now, I don't want to bash your industry, but how do you feel about TikTok dancers?

Daisy:
Interesting question.

Charlie:
Because they make money, you know, the ones that get a lot of following, they make money from doing dancing. Is that legitimate in your opinion?

Daisy:
Yeah, why not? I did see something interesting recently of a... Couldn't tell you their names off the top of my head, but a TikTok couple of two professional dancers who made this TikTok saying that when they were training as dancers, they were really encouraged in terms of how we market ourself in the industry. They were really encouraged to use social media, get yourself out there to put your name out there to show what you can do to really utilise social media as a tool to market yourself as a dancer. So they went onto TikTok and they've created this TikTok page, gone viral, and now as choreographers, they applied for a job recently and they received a response saying, Sorry, we don't want TikTok dancers or TikTok influencers. We want real choreographers. [Oh, my God!] And it made them, of course, very frustrated and angry at how things have turned out based on the advice they were given at the beginning. So it can definitely be looked at in different ways. People have different opinions of it.

Charlie:
Was that a very prestigious school or like a job that they were trying to apply for?

Daisy:
I have no idea. No idea what that was for.

Charlie:
Yeah. So, yeah, you got to be aware of what you're putting out there, I suppose. Maybe if I was to apply for a job in a Cambridge University, they would say, Sorry, we don't take podcast English teachers.

Daisy:
Who knows? Maybe you should try, see what happens.

Charlie:
Okay, so let's go back a bit to where you grew up so we can understand what kind of your your circle of friends and family represents, really. Where in the UK are you from?

Daisy:
I'm from Hertfordshire, which is just outside London, just north of London, and I was born in Watford and then we moved when I was quite young. When I was about seven years old, we moved to Saint Albans, which is the next door city, both very typical commuter towns for London, I would say. I would, dance-wise, I would often, as I was growing up, be taking the train into London to take class at different studios because that's really where the dance scene is. And so a lot of the time when people ask me where I'm from, I would say I'm from London because I feel like I've spent a lot of time in London growing up, but really I'm not from London. If someone then says, where in London are you from? They'll realise that I'm from Hertfordshire, which is the next county.

Charlie:
Yes, I see. And where in London would you spend your time in dance schools or studios, roughly?

Daisy:
Mostly, as I was younger, it would have been Pineapple Studios, [Okay.] Covent Garden, a very famous studio, very historic. And these days there are some modern ones that have come up more recently, like Base Studios in Vauxhall and The Hub in East London. There are different places where you can go and take open classes.

Charlie:
Okay, so you went there. You always wanted to dance when you were young. That was quite a popular thing in the UK, we've kind of mentioned that, for girls. What's the ratio, would you say, for girls and guys to dance early age?

Daisy:
At an early age, it's almost, almost 100% girls, let's say maybe 90, 95% girls. [Okay.] Often you'll find the the one or maybe two boys in a in a local dance school. And and so when you, when I've grown up and I've I've gone out to dance school, I've gone into the industry. You speak to the guys in the industry. And whereas the girls will all say they start at age two, aged three, the guys have all started, most commonly aged 16, 17, 14, maybe at the youngest. It's quite common to start a lot later in life as a guy, and I think that comes purely from the stereotypes that a lot of them will say that they- A bit like I said, I didn't have the guidance at school to think dance was a career, they will say they often didn't have the guidance when they were younger that they could go to dance classes. They felt like they had to go to football. The traditional stereotypes. And I think it's a lot harder for a boy at a young age to make that choice, to say, actually, I want to go to ballet or I want to go to some kind of dance class.

Charlie:
Yeah, I understand. Do you think that means there's a difference in the level of skill and quality in the genders? Because a lot more girls have been training for 15, 16 more years, maybe ten years, let's say, than the guys. They would have more time to put in, you know, the drills and all of the essential things to have a really strong foundation within their skill set. What do you think?

Daisy:
To an extent, yes. That's also evident because, of course, there are so many girls in the industry that it's such a saturated place to be trying to find work as a female dancer that no matter how strong your technique is and how good your base is, you'll always be fighting against so many other female dancers. Whereas the guys, they might not have that technical base because they started later on and they haven't got that same technical level. But because there are fewer guys, they get to where they want to be much quicker and much more easily.

Charlie:
Right. If there was a career guidance staff talking to a male who said, I want to be a dancer, would they encourage them? Yeah, Yeah. You'll get to the top.

Daisy:
They'd say great, yes, lovely. Go for it.

Charlie:
Interesting. So, yeah, let's go through that usual route beyond education, early education. So you go to extracurricular dance classes outside of school, from what I understand, for ages from two till 16. And then what would go next? What would happen after that?

Daisy:
Yeah, for me it was until 18. I was at the same school from age four to age 18, and I was also at the same extracurricular dance school from age 4 to 18, more or less the same routine for 14 years of my life growing up.

Charlie:
Did you enjoy that?

Daisy:
Actually, yes. I loved school. I loved dance. And yeah, had a great time growing up. I did things like pantos as well at Christmas.

Charlie:
Okay, well, that deserves another conversation for another time. Pantos. That's incredibly British, isn't it?

Daisy:
Very British.

Charlie:
Quickly, can you tell us what you mean?

Daisy:
Panto is pantomime. It's a type of show at Christmas time that is based on traditional fairy tale stories, like, for example, Snow White, Cinderella, Peter Pan, Dick Whittington and his cat, for example. And yeah, it would be a kind of part comedy, part musical show. And with singing, dancing and usually some kind of big comedy character played by someone very famous, maybe a Z-Lister. [Yeah]. Or if you're lucky, a D-lister who would play the Dame or the the joker in some way.

Charlie:
Do you remember any of those d-listers that you were graced with on stage?

Daisy:
I did Peter Pan with Tracy Beaker as Peter Pan.

Charlie:
Tracy Beaker was the lead stage name.

Daisy:
Honestly, I couldn't tell you. I think. Yeah, her stage name was definitely Tracy Beaker. Yeah.

Charlie:
So that was panto. So panto became something that you would involve yourself in every year as of 16 plus? 18?

Daisy:
It was actually when I was younger. Panto tends to have the older dancers who would be 18 plus and then you get I think they were called the panto babes, where a local dance school would be kind of taken on. And within that dance school they would provide the little mini dancers to be on stage. And I was one of those.

Charlie:
Oh. Babes as in as young, not as in like the other term. Okay, that makes more sense.

Daisy:
As in young children, babes. Exactly. So that was probably aged 10, 12.

Charlie:
So you're on the stage and pantos can get pretty big. Like I feel like some of the stages that I went to see pantos at had, I don't know, maybe even a thousand, 2000 people sitting there watching?

Daisy:
Around that. Yeah.

Charlie:
And did you feel comfortable with that, that many eyes on you? As I said earlier.

Daisy:
Yeah, I loved it. [Yeah?] Actually this came up the other day in a conversation with my mum because at that age it's up to the parents to be the backstage hands, to take turns to dress all in black and help usher the children on and off in the wings and help in the dressing rooms behind the scenes, etcetera. [Right]. So my mum got involved with some of that and the other day, I don't know why we were talking about panto, why it came up in conversation, but she mentioned a moment in the first panto I did, I think, where she stood in the wings with me and I was about to go on stage and it was before the show started and she peeked out of the curtain and she saw all the audience sat there, which to me is the most exciting part of a show. That feeling in the wings before when it's about to start and she said to me, Oh my gosh, are you not terrified? Look, there are so many people. How can you go out there? And I said,

Charlie:
What a terrible mother to say that!

Daisy:
No, mummy, it's so exciting. She said, Are you are you scared? But she I guess she asked me how I was feeling or...

Charlie:
Yeah, I picked up on the wrong things. You said the contrary thing. You said No, I'm so excited, Mummy. [Yeah. Yeah]. Wow. Yeah, that says a lot. You're excited by the audience. You love all that. You want more of that. And did people compliment you on your coordination and your ability to dance well, or did you have huge self-belief and you didn't need any anyone to tell you that? We have come to the end of part one, so feel free to take a break from your listening practice, but if you're happy to keep going, then we're now moving on to part two of this episode. Thanks so much for being a premium or Academy member and enjoy the rest of the show.

Daisy:
I would say my mum always told me I was fantastic.

Charlie:
So does mine. Mine says that.

Daisy:
Good comments from family, friends in general. But then I guess you don't know how much of that is out of love and how much is a real, true, true compliment. I think in general, my dance route has not come from talent as such. I was never particularly encouraged by my dance teacher either. When I expressed to her desire to want to take it further, she was never encouraging. She always said, You're the wrong...

Charlie:
Lovely!

Daisy:
...body shape for dance for the dance world. You're you'll never make it. It's a terrible industry.

Charlie:
Oh, she said, it's a terrible industry.

Daisy:
Well, not... Again, not in those words. I don't remember exactly what she she would have said at the time, but there was definitely no encouragement to take things further.

Charlie:
Okay. Have you since been back and said, I told you so?

Daisy:
We emailed a little bit. I haven't been back. She- I met the other day, actually, a girl who I was at that dance school with who I hadn't seen for about ten years. She still works with the teacher and apparently she's just celebrated her 80th birthday and she's still teaching.

Charlie:
You're actually reminding me of my sister's experience. The general assumption I have is that they're quite stern, quite strict. They don't easily give out compliments, dance instructors or teachers of that generation.

Daisy:
I understand. It is a terrible industry in a lot of ways. It's not something that you should encourage people too much to go into without seriously considering it, if that makes sense.

Charlie:
Okay. Yeah, I had a question to ask and it's kind of stepping on it, so let's let's go there straight away. I think it was: Is there anything about the industry that is quite dark? Yeah. Is there a dark side of the dancing industry that you've come across? So why do you think it's terrible industry in some ways?

Daisy:
Lots of factors to it. It's definitely hard to find work. There are many girls who grow up wanting to be a dancer. That's the dream job. And yet there are very few jobs for all of those little girls who dream of being dancers. There's just not enough work in the industry.

Charlie:
Statistically, we're crushing dreams straight away.

Daisy:
Statistically, we're crushing dreams. Yeah. Then even when you- so financially the training is also... Dance school is more expensive than university. You also invest in dance shoes, dance wear, there's a lot of financial investment to get you there. And then even if you get to the top of your career, you're on the West End, you're smashing all your goals. The pay is not there.

Charlie:
Even at the top?

Daisy:
Yeah. In general, yeah. The dance industry is never well paid. [Wow]. Kind of fighting with everything you've got, fighting against the competition, then fighting against all the rejection that you get. The emotional turmoil of auditions, rejections, auditions, rejections, add in- I don't know- The kind of the physical pressure of looking a certain way of... A lot of people in the industry might have suffered from eating disorders and things like that, from the pressure, the camera or of the judgement from the outside world get past all of that and then still you're just doing it for the love of dance. You're not doing it to earn a fantastic salary.

Charlie:
And I also think that within this art there's a lot of snobbery on the critics side, the judges, and I can imagine that might be soul destroying for a young person who's made it. But then they get told, you know, one thing wasn't quite perfect and then that really has an effect on them. Did that have an effect on you? You've never been told you've done anything wrong?

Daisy:
I think the reason that I've made it this far without having any encouragement at a young age, is because I'm somehow, in a way, resilient to the negativity and to the judgement and the negative sides of the industry just because naturally I love it so much. And that kind of breaks through all of the rest of it and is enough to keep you going and to keep you fighting. But...

Charlie:
Nice. I was going to say, because you love it so much and 'it'- I understand you enjoy the audience. Is 'it' just impressing the audience or there's something about the dancing that you absolutely love? And if there is, I assume there is, can you describe that for me?

Daisy:
'It' isn't the audience. 'It' is the the dance itself and the the connection to the music [Right] I guess. The physical feeling of hearing the music and needing to express that music with your body. [Yeah] Sounds very cheesy, but...

Charlie:
No, no, I relate to it every day in the kitchen when I'm getting ready to make my coffee, I groove to Smooth FM every day.

Daisy:
Excellent choice of radio station.

Charlie:
Yeah. No, I don't. I, I would be ridiculed by my partner if I did. But I do know what you mean and it's not cheesy. I understand it. And that was there from a young age. [Yeah] I would say and I'm saying this because when I went to a country in Africa, Uganda, when I was 19, I noticed how music and dance is part of the community's life so much more than in my neck of the woods where I grew up. I found it amusing when I saw my nephews and my niece dancing, and my sister has no rhythm at all. You know, I don't either, really, but. And she doesn't didn't know how to, like, show her children how to move. She was just like, awkwardly, like jumping like a frog, like, yeah, yeah. Move to the music. Whereas the people in the community in Uganda were like, really rhythmic, really going with the flow and the beat of the music. And I just felt like there's a complete gap in the way that our cultures connect with music. But you've obviously connected with it despite that in our culture. Do you feel like that was hard to to sort of.

Daisy:
Makes sense to me, because I think growing up, I, like I said, did these very traditional British kinds of dancing that are quite organised in a sense, like a ballet class and a modern class. And it's very different to what you probably saw naturally in Uganda, a real connection to the music. I think at that stage it wasn't such a connection to the music for most of the children in after school ballet class. But it was more as I got older, and I like to think... So when I tell people that I've got these two sides to my life of languages and dance, I always laugh because they seem very disconnected and very random. But I feel like there is an overlap and a connection between them. And I think as I grew up and I studied different languages and different cultures and I lived in Spain and I went to university and I met people from different places in the world and I learnt to dance salsa and I learnt to dance flamenco in Spain and the different cultures came in and I learned to dance Afro. I definitely felt some kind of level of connection on a culture.

Charlie:
I can see what you mean about two things working simultaneously. It will be great for holding back dementia. That's supposedly a very good thing. Actively learning languages and keeping your body moving to music.

Daisy:
Excellent. Smashed it.

Charlie:
But yeah, I think I know what you mean. Obviously I haven't experienced it to understand it fully. With the journey of becoming a professional dancer, is it natural to have another industry to keep you financially secure? Do most people do that kind of thing? Like you've done it? How? Like how you've done it?

Daisy:
Most people don't do it how I've done it. It's quite unique and in fact, I don't think I've met anyone so far who's taken the same pathway. But practically everyone, almost everyone in the industry as a dancer will not just be a dancer. They'll have a supporting career, a part time job. What we like to say, a muggle job is often what dancers, actors and singers say, Oh, my muggle job is I work in a cafe or I work in the pub, etcetera.

Charlie:
Are there any non Harry Potter dancers then? [Depends how you look at it]. Non Harry Potter fan. There's lots of different opportunities for people to keep themselves going in the profession. But you've not met another teacher like you?

Daisy:
Not that I haven't met a teacher, but the pathway of... So most people will go to dance school aged 18 or maybe even younger, 16, 17, 18. And I went aged 18 to study languages at university. That was a four year course. And that was also what I was meant to say earlier, that I never planned on teaching. But in my, it was in my year abroad of my languages degree that I ended up working in Spain teaching English in a languages school. And that's actually something that happened by chance, but that has shaped my whole life and lifestyle now. To be what it is in that it taught me that I was interested in teaching and I was a good teacher and I liked teaching English. That has become my supporting... Well, I don't like to say supporting career because that makes the English teaching the language teaching seem inferior when actually is also something that I really care about but think that's what makes... So I was scared to go to dance school aged- What was I? Aged 22 when I started. I felt like I was old. I felt like it was too old to start dance school and I was much older than the people around me in general, most of them. But I think it also in some ways gave me some advantages. And for example, now I've got the English teaching and I've got the dance and I can build this... Try to build this routine around the two of them. And instead of having to fall back on... Not that there's anything wrong with working in a cafe, working in a bar, but I think I love the fact that I have, let's say, a muggle job that is not just a job. It's something I actually care about.

Charlie:
Yeah. Really nicely put and I totally understand it. That's- That's probably helped you with the way in which you approach your dancing to not- I don't mean the word desperate- but other people who don't enjoy their other job would probably really, really want their dancing to happen quicker than you feel the need for it to happen.

Daisy:
And you can look at that in two ways. In some ways you can say that they have the necessary fire of desperation, so they're going to fight harder because they need it. But then you can look at it how you just said that you're less desperate, so you're more- not more relaxed because you do need the fire, you need the fight. But in a way, it's nice that it's not the end of the world when you don't have a dance job because you still have a life that you're enjoying.

Charlie:
This leads me to really one of the first questions that I wanted to come to. What is the hierarchy like? You know, if you're an accountant, you know, kind of the structure or financial advisor, people kind of know the structure in which you want to get promoted to be the top dog in a company. That's obviously not the case in dancing. What would you say are some clear levels in which you need to try to obtain by a certain point, or is there just is it none of that? It's just an art that you enjoy doing and if you can get paid, then that's that's you as a professional dancer. And that's, that's the level that everyone's at?

Daisy:
Definitely less of a sense of levels than in other careers. And they do exist. For example, West End in the dance world, I would say almost everyone in London is aiming for the West End. That's the pinnacle of a career.

Charlie:
Is it the pinnacle of dancers from other countries as well? Do they want to come to the West End?

Daisy:
Quite possibly, depending on the dancer, maybe depending on where they're from. Some people might aim for Broadway, I guess. [Right] For me, a lot of the original inspiration for me, I think, came from watching West End shows, came from my parents taking me to West End shows. And so that has always been an image that I've had in my mind.

Charlie:
Yeah, yeah. And then after that, West End, what would what would be next?

Daisy:
I don't think there really is [no?] a higher level than West End.

Charlie:
I did write down, thinking I was hilarious, is the pinnacle to be a dance partner for a celebrity on Strictly Come Dancing? Hahaha. So that's a TV show guys. It's a- it's very popular in the UK. It's still running, right? [Yeah]. So what's the structure on Strictly Come Dancing?

Daisy:
The structure is that celebrities go on the show. They are paired up with a professional and over a period of weeks the professional teaches them to dance Latin and ballroom, and week by week they'll focus on a different style of Latin and ballroom and compete against the other couples to try to win the trophy.

Charlie:
And they show how easily they learn how to dance, basically, or how quickly they can learn how to dance. Because some of them are completely what's the phrase?

Daisy:
They have two left feet.

Charlie:
That's it. Some of them have two left feet, meaning they can't coordinate their legs at all. And some of them are actually kind of close to already professional dancers in some way, like gymnasts or something like that, that transfer the skills quite a lot.

Daisy:
You would be good on Strictly?

Charlie:
Oh yeah, I'd be very good. Yeah. I would actually probably be a bit confusing for the viewers because 'is he the professional or is he the celebrity?' No, I probably wouldn't get too far, although I do think I would get quite far. But I've not I've got no nothing to prove. I've got no evidence on that. I just feel like I would be good. But I feel too like I really like hip hop. I really, really like hip hop. And I actually even saw some of your Instagram and your- is it old manny to say your hip hop video?

Daisy:
I'm not sure I have hip hop on my Instagram. Maybe more commercial, but yeah, I can imagine.

Charlie:
Commercial, Yeah, commercial. Some of your commercial dances were really cool. And that kind of dance that is advertised as like a group class for people to come to even as a beginner, I've always been tempted to do that, but I feel too insecure in what people see me as to be able to ever step into that arena.

Daisy:
In order to like, let go of any inhibitions or...?

Charlie:
Yeah, I feel like I could kind of get away with salsa if I was good. But anything else, I should remove that. But anyway.

Daisy:
You should definitely go to a hip hop class at Base Studios. I'll take you.

Charlie:
Okay. Okay. The best of the best.

Daisy:
Although it's... Some people these days would probably say it's overhyped. Some people these days would probably try to say that we shouldn't all be aiming for West End. That there's a lot more to life than aiming for the West End. But traditionally, that is a famous goal.

Charlie:
What do you think about cruise ships? Dancing on cruise ships? Just a bit of context before we go in there. So a lot of people go on holiday on big boats, have huge shows where very talented dancers, singers, etcetera, show off their talent. And yet and you're away at sea for like six months, sometimes up to six months.

Daisy:
12 months,

Charlie:
12 months? Whoa!

Daisy:
Usually 9 to 12 months.

Charlie:
Wow. Harry's ex does cruise ships, and, yeah, I felt like there was a stigma attached to it, but I have no judgement because I'm not in the industry, but I want to hear yours.

Daisy:
So cruise ships have always been a big part of the industry and talking about steps or levels, I would say that's one of the levels or steps on the way to West End, like a lower step that a lot of dancers go down that route. And I think it's also been changing a lot, both the reputation and the quality of those kind of shows and contracts in recent years, in that now there's a lot more focus on cruise ships. The shows on cruise ships are bigger, better. Some people would say that maybe they are shows that are the level of West End or, I don't know, maybe better, in some cases. They're very big scale productions, but it's always a big question among dancers, like my friends and I, for example, me and my friends, as to do you want to go and live on a boat for 12 months? Of course, there's a lot of factors. Are you in a relationship? Do you want to leave your partner? Do you want to leave your family? Do you get seasick?

Charlie:
Oh, I see. I thought you meant are you in a relationship? Do you want to leave that relationship, like, forever?

Daisy:
Oh, leave as in...! And then you'd be apart from your family, your partner. Yeah. Would you get seasick and.

Charlie:
Seasick. Yeah.

Daisy:
Can you pirouette as a turn? Can you pirouette on a stage while the boat is rocking in the middle of a stormy sea? Can you do lifts with your partner? I don't know. A lot of it is challenging to think about, but some people also during COVID got stuck on the cruise ships and there was a lot of criticism, let's say, about how some of the ships or companies dealt with that period. Some terrible conditions for dancers not being able to get off the ship even once COVID got better and there were guests back on the ship, there were some rules on on certain boats where the boat would dock and the guests would all be allowed to get off. But COVID rules were that the dancers couldn't. The dancers had to stay in their cabins. So a lot of strange things have gone on.

Charlie:
When they were unable to dock, were they still being asked to put on a show?

Daisy:
I think the dancers and the crew were stuck on the ship for a number of months, but without guests.

Charlie:
We have come to the end of part two now. So again, feel free to pause the episode two, take a break from your listening practice and come back to the last part when you're ready. All right. So moving on to part three now. Enjoy.

Daisy:
I think. [Right] but I'm not entirely sure.

Charlie:
Okay. Obviously torturous being in a quote unquote prison on in the sea. But at the same time, you've got no guests to please. So you could kind of run riot. [Yeah, I guess] The staff could have fun on this huge cruise ship.

Daisy:
And I think someone who experienced this who I was speaking to months ago said that said that the first couple of days, it was the excitement of, gosh, we've got the boat to ourselves. Nothing to do. It's like a holiday. And then after a couple of days, it was, oh, my gosh, we're stuck on this boat and we're not getting off and we don't know what's happening.

Charlie:
Yeah, that's a film. I feel like a lot of films will come out of COVID. [Yeah] A lot of romance films and already post-apocalyptic kind of things seem to be very popular. There was one cruise ship that sank in near Japan, and my friend was on it. Do you remember the one that sank? I think it was near Japan. [Recently?] Maybe it wasn't. It was within the last six years. And it was like going down really slowly and it was near the coast. So it wasn't like I think a couple of people may have died, but it wasn't like, [It rings a bell] you know, huge numbers. But yeah, alarming to think that those huge things could actually sink. But obviously they are on on water. Okay, So what would you do? Would you ever go on a cruise ship? Have you?

Daisy:
I haven't so far. And I only graduated from dance school in 2021. So I've only been tackling this dance career for about a year and a half.

Charlie:
Right. Yes. You did your four year linguistic degree before. What was that titled? Is it linguistics?

Daisy:
Modern languages. [Okay. Yeah.] Age 18 to 22 was my languages degree, aged 22 to 25 was my dance course. And now I'm 26.

Charlie:
Right. Oh, to be 26. No, not going to be that person.

Daisy:
So just going back to the cruise ships, that's an interesting one. So far I've- so far I've said no to cruise ships mainly because of the length of time. I've always said if there were a shorter contract, I would be much more inclined to give it a go. But 12 months, nine months is too long. Even though I would love to travel the world and dance, perform at the same time, and I think it takes a lot of guts to go away for that length of time.

Charlie:
You can't pay extra and have your partner with you in a in a double room, can you?

Daisy:
No, you can't pay extra. But I am now dating another dancer. So there is the question of can you both apply and say, I'm only coming if they're coming? Take us as a two. You can put us in the same cabin, save some money. Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know.

Charlie:
That would be a perk.

Daisy:
Yeah. So up till now I've said no, but I'm becoming more open to the idea, particularly because recently an audition came up a couple of weeks ago that I applied for and went to. That was for a French speaking cruise, and I thought, they're looking for French speakers. Great. That combines the two sides of my life. And also it was a six month cruise. So already half the time, so much easier.

Charlie:
Yeah. Uh huh.

Daisy:
But I got cut [Okay] in the audition.

Charlie:
All right. But you're resilient to that kind of thing?

Daisy:
I am. Yes.

Charlie:
It's a potential thing for you. Cruises and the general, like the talent pool, is increasing. The shows are getting more impressive as the years go on. So cruise ships are something to somewhat respect, would you say, from a West End perspective from...?

Daisy:
Yeah. And it's definitely easier to get West End jobs or other big London jobs if you have a cruise contract or more on your CV.

Charlie:
So that kind of concludes my questions about the structure and what you aim for. But what about the length of your career? Can you go for many, many years? Is it like an athlete where you have to sort of retire at 30, 40, something like that?

Daisy:
Similar, I would say, although I'd say this is also something that's been changing over time and that previously there was more judgement on age and that these days people are more open minded, that you can keep going for longer as long as you are fit and in shape and looking after your body and capable of doing the job, then why should you be judged for being a few years older? So I think it's changing more from... Before it would have been definitely the career was over by age 30, let's say. Now, I think 40 wouldn't be unusual.

Charlie:
And if we go back to your dancing instructor and my sister's, who was slightly, you know, not bitter, but she was just not happy generally. Do you think maybe they got to the age of 30? They were told that they can't be on the stage as much anymore. And then they had to resort to another thing that they weren't as passionate about as they got older?

Daisy:
Quite possibly. And then took it out on other people.

Charlie:
Would you be happy to transition to being a full time dance instructor after you feel like your body can't handle the intensity that these shows require?

Daisy:
I think for me, dance is for performing, and once I'm in a position that I'm wanting to leave the performing world, then I would want to focus more on language teaching than on dance teaching. If I were to stay in the dance world, it might be more as a choreographer instead of a teacher or I don't know. If I were to teach, it would be more in a fitness sense, like a yoga teacher. But I can't see myself opening a dance school, for example.

Charlie:
Choreography, I feel like, is something that is. Yeah, it's fascinating. I imagine it is really well respected, right? As like a yeah, a skill that is completely unique and put into words my thoughts. Like, you know how you have an orchestra and a conductor. Like people put the conductor, they respect them highly. They really put them on the pedestal almost. Would a choreographer have that kind of respect in the industry?

Daisy:
I mean, particularly if they're a good choreographer. Yeah.

Charlie:
I'm not just doing tragedy.

Daisy:
Yeah. Not just a TikTok choreographer, for example. [Oh!] But yeah, they have to be the person who creates the vision and puts it into practice using the bodies in front of them. So it's definitely a unique skill to have. And.

Charlie:
And have you have you tried it? Have you done it? Are you a choreographer?

Daisy:
I wouldn't call myself a choreographer. Definitely not. I've done things on a small scale. Like at university. I choreographed a salsa bachata team for some shows and competitions, but I haven't had a lot of experience in choreography, choreographing.

Charlie:
Choreographing. Oh Okay. Choreographing.

Daisy:
Choreographing.

Charlie:
Choreographing. Yeah. Choreographing.

Daisy:
Choreography, but...

Charlie:
Choreography?

Daisy:
Choreographing the choreography.

Charlie:
Oh, one more time?

Daisy:
As a Choreographer. Choreographing, choreographing the choreography as a choreographer.

Charlie:
Guys, repeat that one. Very good. Have you ever been in a flash mob?

Daisy:
I have not, but I would absolutely love to. I think that's another thing, that's along with the West End, shows something that sparked my excitement when I was younger, seeing flash mobs happening. And there are some companies in London who organise dance flash mobs for engagements, for example, or different events, and I would love to get involved with that side of the industry I think is great.

Charlie:
Yeah, that would be cool. Let's go with some highlights of your career. 2021 you said that you graduated. Do you feel like there are some that have will remain in your memory for many, many years already?

Daisy:
Definitely my biggest highlight so far is the tour that I've I say I've just been away on, really I got back at the end of November, so it's already a little while ago. That came quite out of the blue, quite spontaneously. So it was a Bollywood musical, a UK, a UK tour of a Bollywood musical. And I had just left my agent. Agents are a whole nother topic to talk about, but there are different types of agents and some of them are exclusive. Some of them are not exclusive. This one was the exclusive one. This was the exclusive version of an agent. And so there's a directory online where most of the performing jobs will come through for actors, singers, dancers. And it's up to the exclusive agent to control. This directory is called Spotlight, and it's up to the exclusive agent to control your spotlight. So for nine months, I had this agent, this one agent, and for nine months she didn't get me one audition or one self-tape. She got nothing in nine months.

Charlie:
And did you have to pay her anything?

Daisy:
No. You would never have to pay a true proper agent, but you would pay commission when the job comes along. She was saying 'that's the industry, it's COVID, it's competitive. There's nothing out there'. She was giving all these excuses, and after nine months, I thought, I don't believe you anymore. She was also late for every single one of our meetings, she came across as unprofessional, and I made the decision, This isn't right. I'm leaving. So I left her. And then that means when you don't have the exclusive agent, even if you have other kinds of agents, that means you control your own spotlight. This directory.

Charlie:
Okay. Oh it's a directory.

Daisy:
So in the first few days after leaving her, I started to put myself in for jobs through spotlight, through this website, randomly put myself in for a couple of things. There was this Bollywood musical that my friends had seen and had said, Daisy, why don't you put yourself in for it? Because they knew I had danced Bollywood before and that I loved Bollywood. And I said, Oh, no, I don't think I'm right for that because it's specified you needed to be experienced in classical Indian dance as well, which I wouldn't say I was experienced in. But they said, Go on, try it. And I thought, why not try it? And this was the job that I got for this musical. I got it. It was confirmed within a couple of days. And just like that, you go off touring the country for two and a half months. And it was...

Charlie:
Within a few days, you got it from from applying?

Daisy:
Yeah.

Charlie:
Yeah. So terrible agent.

Daisy:
Terrible agent, whirlwind experience. But this job was definitely a highlight. It was an experience of a lifetime. Really great fun.

Charlie:
Wonderful. And will that kind of gig happen again where you can tour with that show or is that kind of show never happening ever again?

Daisy:
It was the... It was the first time it was the debut that they tried this show. And there are talks of doing it again and putting into practice a lot of the critiques and advice and comments that were received about the show. Unconfirmed rumours at the moment, but potentially in 2024 and potentially they have mentioned a world tour. But I don't like to get too excited about that because it sounds very exciting.

Charlie:
Yeah, that would be. Yeah. I was just thinking because if you if you do get tours that repeat, then you would only need a handful of tours that you are well connected in, and, you know [true] thought of as a fundamental part of the the dance crew to then get repeat business and then be busy all year round. Right?

Daisy:
Yeah. Depending on how long the show goes on for. It's true. Some people, for example, will do Let's take Dirty Dancing and some people I know have done regional productions of Dirty Dancing, then a UK tour of Dirty Dancing and then the West End of Dirty Dancing, and then a tour and then West End. So if you're in, then you're in. But getting in is quite difficult.

Charlie:
And do you- I'm really sorry how long this is going on, but I'm genuinely wanting to ask you the next question. Do you ever feel like the people that you're dancing with are all really talented or do some of them get in because of who they know?

Daisy:
It's definitely who you know.

Charlie:
Oh!

Daisy:
The dance industry is... The people who work in the dance industry, it's a combination of networking, contacts who you know, and grit, determination and resilience. I think talent is not unimportant, but it's definitely not as high on the list as those other qualities or factors.

Charlie:
Yeah. I can see that. That's similar in other arts, really. I mean, maybe even all jobs. But I remember hearing something about Chris Martin. Is he the Coldplay guy? He was doing a thing on TikTok, I think, or some social with an amazingly talented musician. And he said outright, like, this guy is ten times more talented than me. But yeah, sometimes it's not necessarily all about the talent. He said it in a less arrogant way.

Daisy:
It's also Luck. Being in the right place at the right time, meeting the right people.

Charlie:
And it was luck that allowed me to meet you. And we met because I was looking for somebody to help me with classes in the academy of this podcast. And yeah, you've been helping me out in there for a year now, I think.

Daisy:
A year and a bit.

Charlie:
A year and a bit. We're over a year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's been amazing on my end to have such a talented teacher helping in the academy. So yes, thank you very, very, very much. But you also do a 1 to 1 lessons as well. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you do online, offline, whatever, within the teaching world?

Daisy:
Within the teaching world, I teach online 1 to 1 English lessons through Italki and through Verbling. I also have some of my own in-person students, but most of my online work is through those two websites. Recently, I've also jumped onto TikTok and I've been making some TikTok videos. I also have a YouTube channel, but that's been quite neglected recently. I've been focusing a lot more on the TikTok, and that's what I get up to with the languages.

Charlie:
Nice. I will put all of the links to the relevant ones that you mentioned or want me to include in the show notes. The YouTube though, What is your YouTube channel called?

Daisy:
British English with Daisy.

Charlie:
British English with Daisy. And your TikTok?

Daisy:
British English with Daisy.

Charlie:
There we go. Italki or Verbling. Which would you prefer?

Daisy:
Either.

Charlie:
Okay, wonderful. Is it General English? Grammar? Ielts?

Daisy:
Any of it. All of it.

Charlie:
All of the above. Lovely. Okay. And yes, I would definitely recommend. Daisy is very nice. How would I describe your classes that I have seen? You are incredibly patient and you bring a kind aura to the class which encourages them to feel comfortable when making mistakes and then flourish in the long term. I would say bring a soft humour to the class that that encourages them to partake in conversation with you. Beautiful. I really, really enjoy it. Thank you very much for being part of the Academy.

Daisy:
Thank you, Charlie. I appreciate that. It's been an honour teaching for the the, the Academy. I think you've got some wonderful students and it's been really lovely getting to know them.

Charlie:
Nice. Yeah, they are a wonderful bunch. I hope you enjoy your day. And if I can wangle it, maybe even get you back on here another time.

Daisy:
Lovely. Thank you for having me.

Charlie:
All right. Thank you very much, Daisy. All the best, guys. See you soon. Bye bye. There we go. The end of part three, meaning the end of the episode. Well done for getting through the entirety of it. Make sure you use all of the resources available to you in your membership. Thanks once again for supporting the show and I look forward to seeing you next time on the British English podcast.