Transcript of Premium Bonus 061- Transcript

Charlie:
Hello and welcome to the British English Podcast. In today's episode, we have part two of King Henry the Eighth with the unofficial historian Ben Marks from Down Under. Hello, Ben.

Ben:
Hello, Charlie.

Charlie:
Welcome back to the show. We did Henry the Eighth, part one ten minutes ago for us, but two weeks ago for the listener. How strange.

Ben:
It's like, uh, you know, you're offering a podcast and a time machine.

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
Sort of. You're offering a sort of a weird time dilation.

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
Which is sort of what we do with these history podcasts. Right?

Charlie:
Very nice, very nice. So we covered the first two wives of six of King Henry the Eighth. So just to very quickly recap, King Henry the Eighth was around the 15th century. And he was part of the Tudor dynasty or the Tudor era. And Brits know him mainly for his six marriages, five of which we can say failed. So we didn't actually say the rhyme at the beginning and I feel like we've done them a disservice there. So let's do it at the top of this episode.

Both:
Divorced. Beheaded. Died. Divorced. Beheaded. Survived!

Charlie:
That was actually quite good.

Ben:
That was pretty good. I was hoping for something a little more. Sort of skew-whiff. Sloppy. I wanted that real slop.

Charlie:
So, yes. If you didn't catch that, he divorced the first one. Beheaded the second one. The third one died. The fourth one he divorced again. The fifth one he I've lost.

Ben:
Who survived?

Charlie:
Who? No, the fifth one survived.

Ben:
Oh, the. Sorry. The the fifth one, um.

Charlie:
Beheaded.

Ben:
Was beheaded.

Charlie:
Beheaded. And the last one survived. Divorced. Beheaded. Died.

Both:
Divorced. Beheaded. Survived.

Charlie:
So that is pretty much what Brits know of Henry the Eighth. But we want to do better than that. We want to do much more. So this is why we've got Ben back on, to talk about all of the interesting things around this period of time. So we had Catherine of Aragon that was related to the Spanish area at the time.

Ben:
She was Spanish.

Charlie:
She was Spanish. That's the way you say it. Yeah. And then we had Anne Boleyn. And in between those two there was a big change called the Church of England. But if you want to listen to that, go back to part one of Henry the Eighth. So now we're onto the third wife, because Anne Boleyn didn't give him an heir and a male heir, sorry. And their marriage was a bit shitty. So, um, he beheaded her very nicely. Yeah. And then in comes a lady in waiting, which I want to talk about. Or Ben would like to talk about more called Jane Seymour.

Ben:
Yes.

Charlie:
But before we do that, why is this fact that she was a lady in waiting interesting?

Ben:
Well, it's just an interesting fact, because, uh, Henry seemed to have a bit of a penchant for, uh. Is it penchant? Penchant?

Charlie:
I don't know that word. So you're on your own.

Ben:
Okay, well, he had a bit of a penchant for, uh. I'm going with that, by the way. He had a penchant for, um, marrying the the ladies in waiting of his previous queen. So a lady in waiting is basically a female servant to the queen. She helps her dress and clean and all that stuff.

Charlie:
Right.

Ben:
Like a lady's maid that we talked about in another episode.

Charlie:
Yeah. Yeah yeah. I think I remember in, um, looking into whether King Charles wanted the throne or not. And I read that Queen Elizabeth, um, the second, uh, her lady in waiting would respond to the fan mail or help her.

Ben:
Oh, really?

Charlie:
I think.

Ben:
Okay. Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, that's that's a that's fair enough.

Charlie:
Yeah. Um, so maybe they did those jobs.

Ben:
Yeah.

Charlie:
Then with a quill.

Ben:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. A lot of fans back then.

Charlie:
But it wasn't just Jane Seymour that was a lady in waiting. So it was, who else was?

Ben:
Uh, so we had, uh, Anne Boleyn who was the lady in waiting to Henry's first wife, Catherine of Aragon. Um, yes. So then.

Charlie:
So really, Anne should have seen this coming.

Ben:
Yeah. Uh, you mean Jane?

Charlie:
No. I mean, because you just said Anne was a lady in waiting as well, right?

Ben:
Yes. That's right.

Charlie:
So she.

Ben:
She was the lady in waiting to Catherine. So.

Charlie:
And then she married.

Ben:
She married Henry.

Charlie:
So. And then and then she sees another attractive lady in waiting, and Henry's flirting with her.

Ben:
Ah, I see what you're saying. Yes, yes, you're right.

Charlie:
And then he should. She should have run for the hills because then she got beheaded.

Ben:
Well, I think this gives us a good insight into the court of Henry the Eighth. It would have been like a daytime soap opera.

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
All... Can you imagine a such a small court of people? Basically, everyone knows everyone and all of the intrigue and the whisperings in the hallways. It would have been a very interesting place to be.

Charlie:
It would have been.

Ben:
And this is, of course, if you're a monarch, you'll basically spend all of your time in your castles and palaces. This is, these are the people you hang around with. This is it. This is your life. These are your people.

Charlie:
Yeah. Yeah. Very true.

Ben:
Yeah.

Charlie:
And yeah. So I actually lived when I grew up very near a palace of his or a castle, Hampton Court. So I used to go there for school trips, and we would go around where he used to dine and, and live, but apparently he also, um, lived in the Tower of London and Windsor Castle as well.

Ben:
Yes. He, uh, through his life, he spent time in multiple different palaces. And, uh, inclu- he was born in Greenwich, actually.

Charlie:
Ah.

Ben:
Yeah.

Charlie:
Greenwich mean time.

Ben:
Greenwich mean time. Yes. Yeah, Greenwich mean time. It's a good, good reference.

Charlie:
My friend. I was actually staying in a suburb of Sydney the other day in Greenwich. It was called Greenwich.

Ben:
Yeah.

Charlie:
And I said, I'm in Greenwich to a friend and he's a Brit, and he was like, he's a Geordie. I don't know if I can do the accent. You know what lad I was, I was on the phone, I was on the phone typing in Greenwich and nothing came up, only Greenwich. Hey, what's Greenwich? So he had no idea what Greenwich was.

Ben:
Oh, so he couldn't make the the intellectual leap? Yeah. Between Greenwich and Greenwich.

Charlie:
Very good phrase.

Ben:
Yeah.

Charlie:
The intellectual leap.

Ben:
You know. So, you know, you got different friends with different strengths.

Charlie:
Yes. So now in my books, he's a moron.

Ben:
Yeah.

Charlie:
And his name is Mike. Hello, Mike.

Ben:
G'day, Mike. Hey from Australia. Coming to you from, uh, Greenwich. Greenwich?

Charlie:
Yeah. Um, anyway, so where were we? Jane Seymour? She enters the scene as wife number three and brought a brief period of joy to Henry's turbulent love life. The drama that you might have been talking about. Um, because she gave birth to the much longed for male heir, Edward the Sixth. Her death, though, shortly after childbirth, left Henry genuinely grief stricken, showcaki- I can't speak. Hang on.

Ben:
You're having a stroke. I want to give everyone at home a peek behind the curtain here. Charlie is having a sort of a stroke. His eye is flickering wildly. His eyelid. And his mouth is drooping to one side.

Charlie:
Focusing. Okay, um, genuinely grief stricken, showcasing a rare moment of vulnerability. Jane's legacy as the mother of Henry's only legitimate son and her quiet dignity amidst the chaotic court life earned her a special place in Henry's heart, evidenced by her sole burial next to him in Windsor Castle. So really, he spent most of his time, his time in Windsor Castle.

Ben:
Yeah, I mean, if you're adding up the time in total. In total? Yeah, yeah, I'd say that's a fair bit.

Charlie:
Although I remember I told you this fun fact. When he was buried, he, um, his guts exploded because they tried to shove it in a coffin or something.

Ben:
Now, I was going to ask you about this. Can you give it to me, this story in more detail? Because I actually want to know what you're talking about.

Charlie:
Um, I am a bit confused between another king, because I've just listened to another book on all the Kings, and I'm a bit confused, but basically two of the Kings this happened to, the fatties. So when they buried them, it's natural for their gut, for their intestines to expand and they shove them in a coffin. And this guy, he exploded. Henry the Eighth exploded before they could bury him. And the dogs, his dogs, licked up his remains.

Ben:
Oh, God. In fact, I think you told me about that.

Charlie:
Yeah, that's why I started. I started the, the the little bit with by saying, I told you this in a another episode.

Ben:
Yeah. True. You did say that. We saw some we saw some sumos, didn't we?

Charlie:
Oh, God. Their burials.

Ben:
Yeah we did. We went and saw some sumos in Sydney.

Charlie:
Yes. This is very strange. Um, digression, but yes, we saw some sumo wrestling in Sydney for Ben's birthday. It was quite the sight. They were huge, obviously.

Ben:
Yeah.

Charlie:
Um, and they said that they needed three business class seats, but I don't really get that because that's not really a seat, is it?

Ben:
Well, you can lift the handles, I suppose.

Charlie:
Can you?

Ben:
Yeah. I'd be more worried about the smell.

Charlie:
Oh what! They're fine. Aren't they?

Ben:
Don't they have to get like like young sumos to wipe their ass?

Charlie:
Uh, that is part of the, the, uh, culture.

Ben:
They keep one in their suitcase in the in the in the overhead.

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
They keep them in the overhead for when they need to take a shit.

Charlie:
I don't think it would fit.

Ben:
Well, unless they're paying the flight stewardesses to.

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
Pop in there.

Charlie:
Imagine a budget airline. They would definitely.

Ben:
But seriously, they can't wipe their ass.

Charlie:
Uh, yeah.

Ben:
They honestly can't wipe their arse. So, like, we're on a plane, what are they doing? And that they can't fit in that toilet?

Charlie:
No they can't.

Ben:
How? How are they flying?

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
Are they just being sent across the ocean on a liner like some sort of, you know, one of those big crates?

Charlie:
In a crate? We're being a bit insensitive. Um, but...

Ben:
To who? The Japanese?

Charlie:
To to larger than life humans.

Ben:
Ah.

Charlie:
Ben's sudden realisation. Oh that one.

Ben:
Ah, yes.

Charlie:
Um. Anyway, so where were we? Windsor Castle. So he he. Yeah, he spent most of his days there, if you count all of the dead ones. Um, but, um, Jane Seymour. So she left in a, in a way. I mean, obviously sad she died, but she she left on a high. And that made me think that, um, it's, um, because it's a tough act to follow for the next wife, isn't it? And it rudely reminds me of an episode in Seinfeld. In Seinfeld. God, how do I say it? Seinfeld.

Ben:
Seinfeld. It's that stroke.

Charlie:
Episode in Seinfeld where George decides to go out on a high whenever he says something good in a meeting because he noticed he would often say a good idea and then would ruin it by saying a bad one before the end of the meeting. I don't know if you've... Remember this episode, Ben?

Ben:
Oh absolutely.

Charlie:
So with the utmost respect to Jane, of course, for providing us with Prince Edward and for being a human and all that. But, um, she effectively did this, didn't she? She left before the relationship had time to sour. Um, what's the phrase? In it for a good time, not a long time.

Ben:
Yeah. I'm here for a good time. Not a long time.

Charlie:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben:
So she kind of. She kind of did well there.

Charlie:
Yeah. I mean obviously she died, so she did terribly.

Ben:
It wasn't in her control and she died. But yeah. Positive.

Charlie:
Her memory lived on.

Ben:
Yeah. Yeah. She didn't get the, uh, Henry the Eighth treatment.

Charlie:
Yeah. Yes. Exactly.

Ben:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. She, um, some interesting things about her. She, uh. They were married. Henry and her. Jane Seymour. Only 11 days after Anne's execution.

Charlie:
Right. That's. Yeah. That's awkward.

Ben:
Yeah, yeah. Um. And she died just two weeks. Actually, I think it was 12 days after giving birth to Edward at the palace. She's thought to have died of a thing. Now, I don't know how to say this. It's spelt weirdly. It's got an odd spelling. It's p u e r p e r a l. So puerperal fever. But they think it was following a bacterial infection that she contracted during birth.

Charlie:
Right.

Ben:
Yeah.

Charlie:
Ooh.

Ben:
Interesting little fact there if you like that sort of thing.

Charlie:
Yeah, I love that kind of thing. Fevers are all the rage for me.

Ben:
They're all the rage.

Charlie:
I mean, I love hearing about fevers.

Ben:
Yeah, there's not too much more to talk about Jane Seymour, except for her lineage. So.

Charlie:
Okay.

Ben:
I could go into that a little bit just because the Tudors are quite interesting.

Charlie:
Okay, hit me.

Ben:
And it all sort of stems from her here in a way. But we can mix in the other three. The first two wives with this.

Charlie:
Yeah. Okay. Was Jane Seymour, a born and bred English woman?

Ben:
Uh, she was English, and she was a noble woman. I mean, all the people in court had to be nobles.

Charlie:
Aha. Of course.

Ben:
But of course. So all ladies in waiting had to be of noble birth.

Charlie:
Yes.

Ben:
And they all obviously played the political games, you know, they were all vying for Henry's attention, I'd say, you know, or someone of a high standing.

Charlie:
Yes. Oh Henry, look at my corset!

Ben:
Uh, yeah. I mean.

Charlie:
My corset is tighter than hers.

Ben:
You know, I don't think it was as as, uh, stiff and all that as as they make it seem. I think it was probably a lot looser than... What?

Charlie:
My ankles are thinner than hers. So you think they were quite...forward?

Ben:
I'd say they were pretty... I'd say there's an outward...

Charlie:
Look at my boobs!

Ben:
I'd say when, uh, when, um, sexual stuff needed to happen, it probably happened.

Charlie:
Okay.

Ben:
I, I think, you know, there's an outward there was probably an outward display that they wanted to, you know, because of the church. But I'd say there was a lot of funky stuff that happened in that court.

Charlie:
Funky.

Ben:
Um, but yeah, let's chat a little bit about The Tudors here because this is a good opportunity. So, um, basically, Jane Seymour had a son with Henry, as we've talked about. His name was Edward. Um, and he would go on to become King Edward the Sixth in 1547. But he died at just 15 years old.

Charlie:
Oh, no.

Ben:
Yeah, as they do, there's a lot of young deaths. Um, back then, even with the royals.

Charlie:
The best die young.

Ben:
Yeah. David Brent, he goes, the saying is live fast, die young. I say live fast, die old.

Charlie:
Wise.

Ben:
Wise.

Charlie:
Genius.

Ben:
Very wise.

Charlie:
David Brent, a comedy based character that is incredibly famous in the UK. You've probably heard of The Office guys. That's who he's talking about.

Ben:
Well worth watching. One of the greatest exports of Britain ever.

Charlie:
Ever!

Ben:
And that includes all their textiles, tea, everything.

Charlie:
Ricky Gervais is the guy behind that and he will be very flattered by that. Thank you Ben. Yeah. For him.

Ben:
Ricky, if you're listening, I'm a fan. Now um, as, uh, Edward VI was Henry's only male heir, the crown then passed on after he died at 15 to Henry's oldest daughter, Mary. Now Mary was the daughter of Catherine of Aragon, so she was a staunch Catholic. And if you listened to the first episode, we know that Catherine of Aragon was from Spain, a staunchly Catholic country. Now she became Bloody Mary.

Charlie:
Sorry, can I just interrupt? So, guys, he had changed it from Catholic to Church of England.

Ben:
Yes. To marry Anne Boleyn and divorce his first wife. He flipped the country. Yeah. Broke away from the Roman Catholic Church and created his own religion.

Charlie:
So big moment. Upsetting lots.

Ben:
Yes. Now, Mary was a staunch Catholic. So when she came to the throne, she became known as Bloody Mary because she used to execute all the Protestant heretics that she could find by burning them at the stake.

Charlie:
Oh, oh, so literally just burning any member of public who was claiming to be of that religion?

Ben:
I think anyone who was outspoken, probably about her changing England back to Catholicism.

Charlie:
Right. So a very, very vivid and real cancelling.

Ben:
Yeah. Now, I don't want to go too much into other, uh, other monarchs, but this is important to know because she did switch, um, England back to Catholicism.

Charlie:
And you're saying she as in Bloody Mary right now?

Ben:
Yeah.

Charlie:
Yeah. Okay.

Ben:
Now, Mary died only five years after her succession to the throne in 1558. And her younger half sister, Elizabeth, who was the daughter of Henry and Anne Boleyn, came to the throne. She was next in line, and she was a Protestant. And she was the famous, very famous Elizabeth the First.

Charlie:
There we go.

Ben:
Who ruled over what many consider to be England's golden age of exploration and or colonisation. Yeah, we can talk about that in another episode.

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
But, um, just interesting the, the Tudor lineage there.

Charlie:
Yeah. Yeah.

Ben:
I just thought that would be cool. And then, uh, when Elizabeth, as a staunch Protestant, came into power, she then switched England back to Protestantism and then reinstated, uh, the Act of Supremacy.

Charlie:
So the English population were obviously very confused, I would say. So they're like, which one do I vote for? Or which religion should I be?

Ben:
You know what? It's kind of like our modern two party politics, isn't it?

Charlie:
Yeah, but uh....

Ben:
Not forced on us.

Charlie:
Not forced on us. And also, we wouldn't be burnt at the stake for supporting the opposing party that wasn't in power.

Ben:
That's true. But you never know.

Charlie:
One day, you never know. You can only live in hope. Um, okay, so that was Jane Seymour. Got any more for us?

Ben:
Um.

Charlie:
Before we move on to the fourth act?

Ben:
Oh, just an interesting one more interesting point about Mary. You can cut this out if you like. Uh, she married, um, Philip. She married Philip II of Spain to strengthen her Catholic mission in England. Um, who was the son of Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor. So at that point, only half.

Charlie:
My brain's gone. Keep going, keep going. Too many names.

Ben:
So she married a Spaniard.

Charlie:
Who's she again?

Ben:
Mary, bloody Mary.

Charlie:
Bloody Mary.

Ben:
Married a Spaniard.

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
And she herself was half Spanish. So at one point the English throne had only half an English person on the throne.

Charlie:
Oh good gosh.

Ben:
Oh good gosh. It was all Spanish at that in that moment wasn't it?

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
So I just thought that was an interesting little, um, thing to add in there.

Charlie:
Yeah. That's good. I won't cut that out I promise.

Ben:
Okay.

Charlie:
Okay. So moving on to the fourth and not final because she's got two more after that. So the fourth wife was Anne of Cleves. So the story was that he got a painting in the post of this woman and they said, do you like her? What do you think? And he looked at her and you could Google this picture of her, this portrait of Anne of Cleves. And I'm going to I'm going to repeat a certain David Mitchell who wrote this book, Unruly that I've been listening to. It wouldn't have, it wouldn't have got me aroused. I wouldn't have said yes just to that portrait of of Anne. It certainly wasn't very sexual. It wasn't even that attractive. I'd say she looked very, very plain Jane, ironically. Um, but he said yes. He was like, whoa, yeah, send her over. So she came over from mainland Europe and they were arranged to be married. And then when he looked at her, he was like, oh, you don't look like that. You look a bit worse.

Ben:
Sounds like Tinder.

Charlie:
Yeah, very much like Tinder.

Ben:
Yeah.

Charlie:
Yeah, yeah, yeah! Exactly. So he should have swiped left.

Ben:
Yes, but he swiped right.

Charlie:
But he swiped right. So in comes Anne of Cleves. A disappointment straight away for him. Um, but despite the political implications this marriage had, including alliances against the rising power of the Habsburgs in Europe, Henry quickly sought an annulment. Because of what I just said. Remarkably, Anne of Cleves played her cards well, agreeing to the annulment in exchange for a generous settlement, including several estates and a lifelong title of the king's sister, which seems quite messed up in my opinion. But she lived comfortably in England for the rest of her life, outliving Henry and all of his other wives. So really, this lady who tricked him.

Ben:
Yeah.

Charlie:
With a swipe right instead of a swipe left.

Ben:
Yeah, yeah.

Charlie:
She did the best out of all of the bunch.

Ben:
Yeah. So, uh, I was thinking about that, um, the reference you made to the painting coming and him having a, you know, having a look at the painting.

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
I had not heard that. But, uh, it's interesting because the way that he met Anne of Cleves was that he, after two years of mourning for Jane Seymour, uh, he eventually realised that, you know, a king should have a queen. And so he actually ordered his counsel to go and find him one, uh, and one that was politically motivated, I think, because the reason he chose the counsel and he chose Anne of Cleves was because he needed to form a political alliance with her brother William, who was the leader of the Protestants in western Germany. And this was to strengthen his position against potential attacks from Catholic France and the Holy Roman Empire, as he had just switched to Protestantism. So this was a deliberately political move.

Charlie:
Uh, hence maybe why he was so optimistic about her portrait.

Ben:
Yes.

Charlie:
I can I can handle that. If she looks exactly like that, I can handle that for the power, the gain of politics and all that.

Ben:
Yeah, yeah.

Charlie:
Game in politics. But, um. Oh, no, she looks like that. I can't handle that.

Ben:
Did you know that they actually became great friends later in life?

Charlie:
Oh, really? That's very nice to hear.

Ben:
They had plans to remarry.

Charlie:
Ah!

Ben:
And I think.

Charlie:
Wait. Hang on. That's naughty of him. He's. He's got two more wives to marry.

Ben:
This is even after his. You know, this is I think at some point he had these plans. I don't know exactly when it was. Maybe it was before he died, I don't know.

Charlie:
But the second one outlived him. No, sorry. The sixth one outlived him, didn't she?

Ben:
So perhaps it was just before.

Charlie:
He's a naughty bastard. He's just incestuous, as you said.

Ben:
Yeah, yeah.

Charlie:
We have come to the end of part one, so feel free to take a break from your listening practice, but if you're happy to keep going, then we're now moving on to part two of this episode. Thanks so much for being a premium or Academy member and enjoy the rest of the show.

Ben:
Uh, cool.

Charlie:
Okay. I think I should have said here, he, uh, he couldn't get it up with her. He. So he found her so unattain-... No.

Ben:
Repulsive.

Charlie:
Yes, I feel a bit naughty. But yes, he wasn't attracted to her in such a way that he couldn't get it up for her.

Ben:
Okay, how do we know this?

Charlie:
Uh, through very clear, documented, um, digital records of HD videos.

Ben:
Yes. Yeah.

Charlie:
Um, this guy with a Henry the Eighth attire on. No I'm joking.

Ben:
I was looking that up last night.

Charlie:
Um, no, I think the source that I just mentioned earlier. Unruly. A very good book. Um, this guy David Mitchell, he's done a lot of research about it, so I'm going to trust in what he said. But yeah, he he couldn't get it up. So that's part of why their marriage failed because he couldn't conceive or they couldn't get another male heir.

Ben:
Yeah okay. Yep. Makes sense.

Charlie:
But yeah. So onto the fifth and still not final act. Catherine Howard. Not Catherine of Howard, just Catherine Howard.

Ben:
That's her last name.

Charlie:
Okay. I'm called Charles of Baxter. Nice to meet you.

Ben:
I am always going to call you Charles of Baxter from now on. That is great. That really suits you. Oh, my God, with the posh accent and everything.

Charlie:
Anyway, Catherine. Brackets of Howard. No. Catherine Howard, who was notably younger than him. Ew. Um. And at this point, he's quite fat, quite old, very, maybe very old. And he's got he's probably got gout by now. That's another thing that the British public know. He had six wives and he got really fat and he had gout, and he had he also had a very, very smelly knee from his jousting days.

Ben:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Charlie:
So not a pretty sight for Catherine, but she did get to be a queen. Um, so. Yes. Bringing a youthful and vivacious energy into the ageing king's life. Um, interestingly, Catherine was 16, 17 years old when they married, contrasting significantly with Henry, who was nearing 50. There we go. We've got it. Um, so, yeah, this age gap underscored the stark dynamics at play within the Tudor court, where youth and beauty were powerful commodities, but also potential liabilities. Um, her entry into royal life was a vivid illustration of how the ambitions of families could thrust their members into the dangerous limelight of court politics. Accused of adultery, her fate echoed the harsh reality faced by those who fell out of favour with Henry, a king whose fear of betrayal led him to eliminate perceived threats to his rule with chilling efficiency. Gosh. So, um, she was naughty, was she?

Ben:
She was naughty. She was young, uh, probably very good looking, very charming. And, um, she...

Charlie:
A breath of fresh air after Anne of Cleves. Sorry, Anne.

Ben:
Yeah, uh, I'd say so. She was, uh, she was a cunning and, um, beautiful young woman. And she managed to get Henry's attention, but at the same time, she cheated on him after she married him.

Charlie:
I mean, that would be really interesting as a drama. That would keep me coming back for episode, the next episode.

Ben:
I mean, isn't this court one of the most? It's just a daytime soap.

Charlie:
Yeah, yeah. What's the most ridiculous reality T.V. show at the moment?

Ben:
I don't watch many of them.

Charlie:
No, I can't imagine.

Ben:
Um, I just breathed into the microphone. That sounded really weird.

Charlie:
I don't watch them. *heavy breathing* Um, what's the. What's the one where they're all set... They're all naked on an island?

Ben:
Oh, Celebrity Love Island or something?

Charlie:
Love island.

Ben:
Love island?

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
Are they naked?

Charlie:
Well, they're they're they're just in swimsuits, pretty much.

Ben:
Oh I see, yeah. Yeah.

Charlie:
Swimsuits. I sound like such a grandma.

Ben:
Swimsuits. Yeah. You're down at Bondi Beach with your tape measure, aren't you? Making sure it's.

Charlie:
Um. But. Yeah. So it's it's the modern day equivalent.

Ben:
Yeah.

Charlie:
Uh, my brain is gone. Love Island.

Ben:
Can I just say I literally saw your eyes just then and you froze. Have you ever seen that show? Westworld? Where the robots will get, they'll suddenly freeze. That is that. I'm not joking. You... some fuse blew in your brain just then.

Charlie:
Anyway, so the Tudor courts were like Love Island. That's what I wanted to make a reference to.

Ben:
Like the bold and the beautiful or something.

Charlie:
Yeah, exactly. Um, so Catherine, being young and flirty, got into trouble, and that led to her death. She was executed. So Catherine's execution not only mirrored that of her cousin Anne Boleyn, but also underscored the repetitive tragedy of Henry's quest for loyalty and a male heir, casting a long shadow over the legacy of his reign. The tragic end of Catherine, a young queen caught in the merciless gears of power, serves as a poignant reminder of the perilous balance between ambition and survival at the Tudor court.

Ben:
Very well said. That was spectacular. Honestly, how are you not narrating those British historical BBC docos and things?

Charlie:
I've got a question for you to avoid going going even more red. Uh, that would be a fun reality TV show, wouldn't it? Follow Catherine's love affairs behind gout ridden Henry's back. Uh, we've kind of talked about that.

Ben:
Yeah, but you know what? Okay. She was young, and, uh, she did something that she probably shouldn't have done, and obviously she got her head chopped off. But imagine going out with this old, sickly, fat old man, and then this, like, probably handsome young devil comes through the court. What are you going to do?

Charlie:
What are you going to do? Obviously get your head chopped off.

Ben:
Yeah, yeah.

Charlie:
Do you want your head on or chopped off? Chopped off!

Ben:
Chopped off. Chopped off.

Charlie:
Chopped off. Come here you. Okay. So that was the end of Catherine Howard. So is that the last Catherine? No. We've got we've got one more.

Ben:
One more Catherine. So do you know. So for everyone listening, there's three Catherine's, two Anne's and one Jane.

Charlie:
Mental.

Ben:
That's an easy way to remember.

Charlie:
It is. It is.

Ben:
The last one, though, is Katherine with a K.

Charlie:
Ooh, spicy. Oh, I didn't include that in my notes. Um, what else do we have to say about Catherine the young one? Anything? Nothing else. We can move on, can't we?

Ben:
Yeah. Young girl. Tried her luck and got caught. Head chopped off.

Charlie:
There we go.

Ben:
Into the basket.

Charlie:
Yeah.

Charlie:
We have come to the end of part two now. So again, feel free to pause the episode, to take a break from your listening practice and come back to the last part when you're ready. Alright. So moving on to part three now. Enjoy.

Charlie:
Okay, so come on, hit me with the final act.

Ben:
Katherine Parr. Well, I'm really enjoying your introductions.

Charlie:
No, come on, we've had a lot of me reading. I've given you the good mic for a good reason.

Ben:
Um. Alright.

Charlie:
Get it silky and smooth, baby.

Ben:
Right. So the very last wife of King Henry the Eighth. This is the survived one.

Charlie:
Yes. Divorced. Beheaded. Died. Divorced. Beheaded. Survived.

Ben:
We're up to the survived. Number six. So this is, uh, her name is Katherine Parr. She was the sixth and final wife of King Henry the Eighth. And she emerged as a phoenix from the ashes of Henry's previous marital disasters. Not only did she survive Henry, but she also thrived, bringing a semblance of stability to his later years. Katherine was a learned woman, deeply involved in the religious reform movement, and she used her position to advocate for the Protestant faith.

Charlie:
Hold on. She used her position to advocate for the Protestant faith. So he was still Church of England. So that's going for or against?

Ben:
For. He Church of England is a Protestant church.

Charlie:
Yeah, yeah. Okay. I'm with you. Carry on.

Ben:
Uh, moreover, her tact and intelligence, uh, in court helped mend the fractured relationships between Henry and his children, setting the stage for the future of the Tudor dynasty. Her contributions extended beyond her life with Henry as she published works under her own name, a bold move that cemented her legacy as a patron of the arts and an advocate for education.

Charlie:
I think that deserves another clap.

Ben:
Although.

Charlie:
Well done, Ben.

Ben:
Thanks. Thank you very much.

Charlie:
So she brought the children that he had with previous wives back together, and sort of helped amend the bridges that had been burnt in the past with, you know, so the two daughters that he had, he was like, oh, you don't have a willy. Rubbish, don't like you. But she was like, no, no, they've got a vagina. And empower them to have a vagina. And, you know, don't talk about their vagina so much. You're their fathers. But she brought them back together and that's a, that's a lovely thing.

Ben:
It's a lovely thing.

Charlie:
It's a nice end to the fairy tale.

Ben:
Yeah. Well, I believe she, um.

Charlie:
Though it's not a very, very nice fairy tale.

Ben:
Yeah, well, none of, none of those fairy tales are very nice. Are they?

Charlie:
That's a really good point, Ben, and I'd love to do a podcast about them and dissect them.

Ben:
Let's do something on English fairy tales.

Charlie:
Abso-bloody-lutely. Because they're they're being changed through the woke movement. They're being retold, changed in many, many significant ways.

Ben:
Well, Charlie won't tell you, but I've said many anti-woke not anti-woke, but just things that woke people wouldn't like.

Charlie:
Oh, yeah.

Ben:
And, uh, he's told me to re- re-say it.

Charlie:
Uh.

Ben:
You're not going to hear what I said. You're going to hear the re said versions.

Charlie:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've gotta put a filter on this man. Yes, a woke filter.

Ben:
Lucky this isn't live.

Charlie:
That would be a good AI thing, wouldn't it?

Ben:
A woke filter.

Charlie:
A woke filter.

Ben:
Yeah.

Charlie:
I mean, it would be a terrible thing in your eyes.

Ben:
Yeah, well, I think you say, you cutting some of the stuff I say out is probably good for me.

Charlie:
And everyone listening.

Ben:
Everyone listening.

Charlie:
Um, so, yeah, Katherine Parr had a good end to his stint, I'd say. She made him a bit of an honest man. Maybe.

Ben:
Maybe. I think she. I think she nurtured Elizabeth the first.

Charlie:
Aha.

Ben:
I think so. And that's, you know, that's a big contribution because Elizabeth was, you know, one of the great monarchs.

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
Female. You know.

Charlie:
What period was that?

Ben:
Ruling female over the golden age of England.

Charlie:
What period was that? Was that for, that's not Tudor?

Ben:
No, she is the last Tudor.

Charlie:
She's the last.

Ben:
She didn't bear any children. So the Tudor line ended with Elizabeth the first. But she oversaw the golden, it was considered the golden age. Oh, can I finish with one thing on Katherine Parr?

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
They were married, and she was actually only 31 when they married. But she had been widowed twice before. Uh, she married Henry. She never had any children. And after Henry's death in 1547, she married again. But then she died the following year. So she had four husbands in total. And that makes her the most married English queen in English, in history.

Charlie:
Oh, does it now?

Ben:
Yes.

Charlie:
Four marriages.

Ben:
Four marriages.

Charlie:
I mean, I know Henry died. Did the others die?

Ben:
Yeah. So she was widowed twice. She was widowed. And then Henry died. So maybe she's poisoning them all.

Charlie:
Uh. Do you think?

Ben:
I just thought, the thought just occurred to me.

Charlie:
But she seems nice. I'm. I'm vouching for her to be a lovely lady that just had a very unlucky time. I mean, in those days, people died left, right and centre.

Ben:
Maybe that's why she seemed so nice.

Charlie:
Oh, gosh, the plot thickens, Ben.

Ben:
Oh don't worry. I'm not making that assert- that assertion at all. It's just a thought that popped into my head.

Charlie:
Yeah. For entertainment's sake.

Ben:
For entertainment purposes.

Charlie:
Yes.

Ben:
Uh, yeah. So we can talk about the what Henry did with the Reformation.

Charlie:
Yes. Let's go there.

Ben:
So after he reformed England, let's say, he broke away from the Catholic Church. He went and dissolved all of the monasteries in England. So they're the Catholic monasteries where all the monks live and operate, the church operates. And then he plundered them all for all of their wealth, and just took all of their lands and completely swelled the English royal coffers.

Charlie:
What's that? There's two words there that I don't know. Swelled and coffers.

Ben:
So swelled means he he he, um, added, you know, he he made them swollen with money.

Charlie:
Swollen as in...

Ben:
Ah it's just a colloquial term to say he swelled like he he and like, imagine you the you have a bag full of money and you make it very swollen with money.

Charlie:
Yeah, yeah. Can you say this? Can you define it without using the word?

Ben:
He filled it to the point of the brink. Swelled, I think means filled to the brink.

Charlie:
Okay. Exaggerated the amount.

Ben:
He swelled the English coffers.

Charlie:
Just keep saying it.

Ben:
Just keep saying it.

Charlie:
Nearly fell for that. Um, and and coffers?

Ben:
Coffers is, uh, coffers is the the like the the bank of the country's money.

Charlie:
Okay, so he made a lot of money for the bank.

Ben:
Well, for their royal, the royal storage of money.

Charlie:
Yeah. So he went, no, that's not yours. You're Catholic. Now that's all mine.

Ben:
He just seized it.

Charlie:
Seized it.

Ben:
The land. Money.

Charlie:
Yoink, yoink! And then he made it a good little pot of money. And what did he do with it?

Ben:
First of all, he was very extravagant. He threw lots of big parties. He also spent a lot of money on warfare. And he. He increased the size of the Navy by ten times.

Charlie:
Yeah. Mad. Yeah. So he spent it on ships?

Ben:
Yes.

Charlie:
And battle and food and parties.

Ben:
And he had big building projects, uh, as well through London and England. Um, the other thing is that is probably a seminal moment in England's ability to explore and colonise, um, uh, with all of the expansion of the shipping, you know, ten times.

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
That's when we get to the Elizabethan age later, where exploration is what England is all about.

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
Um, yeah. It's the great age where they start filling in the map.

Charlie:
Right. Okay. Big moment, but yeah. Uh, so that kind of sums Henry the Eighth up, doesn't it?

Ben:
It does indeed.

Charlie:
So he married six wives. He changed the religion in the UK. In England then?

Ben:
Yes.

Charlie:
Uh, from a Catholic, he broke away from the Pope and became what we know as the Church of England. And that is, uh.

Ben:
Well he created the Church of England and became the head of it. He made the monarch of England the head of the Church of England.

Charlie:
And the monarch of England today is still?

Ben:
The head of the Church of England.

Charlie:
The head of the Church of England.

Ben:
That's correct.

Charlie:
Wow.

Ben:
The protector of the Church of England and protector of the faith.

Charlie:
And so that meant that going forward, they didn't have to waste any men in crusades going off to battle for the Pope.

Ben:
No he didn't owe the Pope a single thing anymore.

Charlie:
Yeah. So that must have meant that they could double down on their own exploration and get their own places.

Ben:
Yeah, it was a truly independent England at that point.

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
Um, I actually think you're right. I think that may have changed the mind frame of the, the future monarchs in terms of the permissions they felt that they could give themselves. They had much more absolute authority. They didn't have to ask permission from the church and, and pay tithes and, and give men and like to crusades and things like that. Uh, yeah. I think I think that I think you're right. I think that probably played a big part in England's, um, national mind frame in the way that it thought about itself and its ability to, um, do what it wanted, uh, under its own steam.

Charlie:
Yeah. And also going to colonise countries. They wouldn't have to speak to a higher power of, can we do this? And do you want a share in it or something like that?

Ben:
They became completely independent.

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. I reckon that's, uh, a seminal moment in, um, English history.

Charlie:
And that's all because of Anne saying no, I won't sleep with you until you marry me.

Ben:
Yeah.

Charlie:
Mad.

Ben:
Yeah. I mean, Anne Boleyn changed the course of history.

Charlie:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I would clap just just because that's that's an impressive moment. But I also don't want to condone it because there's a lot of bloodshed from that.

Ben:
How do I do a reverse clap?

Charlie:
But yeah. There we go. Thank you very much, Ben, for walking us through part one and part two of Henry the Eighth and his wives.

Ben:
No problem. It was, uh, it was good fun. And I think we should definitely do a fairy tales one.

Charlie:
Yeah, that'd be good.

Ben:
That'd be good.

Charlie:
Yeah.

Ben:
Yeah, yeah.

Charlie:
Well, until then, thank you very much, Ben. Well done, guys, for listening to the end of this one. Hopefully see you next week on the British English Podcast. Bye bye, Ben.

Ben:
Bye bye, Charlie. And, uh, speak to you next time over the internet.

Charlie:
Yeah, yeah.

Ben:
We'll do our last in-person one for a while.

Charlie:
Yeah. Alright. Bye bye, guys. There we go. The end of part three, meaning the end of the episode. Well done for getting through the entirety of it. Make sure you use all of the resources available to you in your membership. Thanks once again for supporting the show and I look forward to seeing you next time on the British English Podcast.